The Gay Podcast for Everyone

39. He Played With Dolls. A chat with writer, Luis Ignacio Andrade

• Season 3 • Episode 39

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My guest today is Luis Ignacio Andrade. He's a writer whose collection of essays in He Played With Dolls, chronicles his life as a Latinx gay male growing up in a family dominated by machismo. The title highlights the stereotypes that folks have about gender and boys showing interest in "girl things":  dresses, dolls, and Barbies. 

In our chat today, Luis shares how he dealt with a lot of shame for those things growing up and how a seemingly small gesture from an uncle gave him a sense of acceptance when he needed it the most. 

He also shares how after a lot of bumps along the way, his relationship with his mom has done a complete 180, and today she is one of his biggest allies.  

If this episode leaves you with just one thing, I hope it's to remember a person who did that one thing or said that one thing that was so meaningful to you and left such an impression in your life that it's made the biggest difference. And I hope it inspires you to be a positive influence in someone else's life. 

mentioned in this episode:
The Velvet Rage by Alan Downs, Ph.D.

Follow Luis Ignacio Andrade on Instagram or at heplayedwithdolls.com

follow the podcast: theygaypodastforeveryone.com
Instagram: @thegaypodcast_foreveryone

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Episode 39. Semi-edited transcript via Descript.

[00:00:00] Welcome to the Gay Podcast for Everyone, a podcast where my LGBTQ plus community and our allies can come together in conversation and keep building stronger ones together. Whether you're in the LGBTQ plus fam or you're an ally, welcome. This is the Gay Podcast for Everyone.

[00:00:22] Intro Clip

[00:00:22] Luis: And that weekend we went to go visit an uncle and my cousin and I were in her room playing Barbies and the door opens and it's my uncle and I threw the Barbie across the room, like, Oh, I'm not playing with dolls, you know?

 And he paused for a second at the door, walked over, picked up the Barbie that I had thrown, handed it back to me. Sat down with us on the floor, picked up his own doll and started playing with us. And a few years ago, he passed away and I went to the funeral and my cousin and I were, you know, standing there and I said, you know, your dad was the very first person, the only person when I was growing up that ever showed me acceptance and made me [00:01:00] feel like I belonged for just being myself.

and she said, well, how did you do that? And I said, He Played with Dolls 

[00:01:06] Episode Intro - about the episode

[00:01:07] Angela: Hello, friends. Welcome to the Gay Podcast for Everyone. I'm your host, Angela Briones. And on the podcast today, I'm chatting with a new friend who I met via this podcast. Over the past few months, we've gotten to know each other a little.

 And I'm so glad he joined me for a conversation because every time we talk, it's always such a warm, casual and open dialogue. And this conversation is very much the same. My guest today is Luis Ignacio Andrade.

He's a writer whose collection of essays, He Played With Dolls, chronicles his life as a Latinx gay male growing up in a family dominated by machismo. And the title really highlights the stereotypes that folks have about gender and boys showing interest in quote unquote 

girl things, right? Dresses, dolls, and Barbies. So in our chat today, Luis shares how he dealt with a lot of shame for those things growing up,

But as Luis mentioned in the intro clip, it was a [00:02:00] seemingly small gesture from an uncle that gave him the sense of acceptance. When he needed it the most. He also shares how after a lot of bumps along the way. His relationship with his mom has done a complete 180, and today she is one of his biggest allies. 

If this episode leaves you with just one thing, , I hope it's to remember a person who did that one thing or said that one thing that was so meaningful to you and left such an impression in your life that it's made the biggest difference.

And I hope it gives you the inspiration to be that positive influence in someone else's life. You guys, this is my chat with Luis Ignacio, Andrade 

[00:02:37] Angela: So Luis, thank you for being here with me and sharing the space. I know we've talked a- a few times, and that's why I'm excited that you're here. Well, first, you know what I was thinking? I was posting a thing on Instagram today about how crazy it is that this podcast space has led me to people who like are total strangers at one point.[00:03:00] 

And then you just bond. I felt like you and I totally did that is how did you find my page? By the way, how do we get connected? 

[00:03:08] Luis: I was researching, podcasts. I can't remember why, and then I came across yours and I listened to it and I was just like, wow, she's like, great. , and then I, think I reached out to you on social media and I found out that we're basically twins.

And so that just led to, 

[00:03:25] Angela: I know we're total twins. We're both Gemini's. We both basically have the same birthday. Well, you know, a few years apart, off by a 

day. 

[00:03:33] Luis: Yeah. . 

 

[00:03:34] Angela: And then we're writer, writer people, right?

That's another thing. I think that's what really connected us to, and that's why I wanted to like have you here and share your story because your blog title, He Played with Dolls. It's such a great title. So I was wondering if you could tell me more and share with me more how that title came to be and how it reflects your coming out.

[00:03:58] The story behind He Played with Dolls

[00:03:58] Luis: Sure. So [00:04:00] 2020 was, basically a time of change for everyone, right? And some people sort of when it came to your career, you kind of stuck with it. Other people did like a complete 180 and just did something completely different. And I was in retail management clothing for 20 years. And during COVID I was running, a store where most of my employees were women, 99 percent of them were women and they were in their 60s.

And, the company was basically not really sure how they were going to reopen. And I was very concerned with my staff, especially because my husband's a doctor. Right. So I had that, like, That, , every day when I would, when he would come home, I would hear the nightmare stories of what was going on in the hospital, right?

Like you get that firsthand knowledge. I wasn't hearing it from the news. It was hearing it from his mouth and it was really scary. And then you hear what's going on in New York and central park. You know, there are [00:05:00] freezers with people in them and it was just really scary. And so the company basically said, you need to just.

tell everybody they have to come back to work. And I was like, not doing that, not without, you know, precautions. I'm not going to put them in danger. They're that demographic that's dying every day. And they were, they insisted. And so I, kind of struggled with that. I didn't make anybody come back to work, that didn't want to, or didn't feel safe.

And then customers were, it was like a whole new shift in just behavior. People were a lot meaner, a lot angrier. and so I just couldn't tolerate it anymore. And my husband, one day we were sitting down watching, videos of Karen's. Do you remember when that was a big thing during, you know, lockdown so my husband wanted to show me this Instagram account called Karen's gone wild 

I don't know if it's a thing anymore. And when he was showing me these videos of these women freaking out, I [00:06:00] literally had so much anxiety, which is not normal for me. And instead of laughing, I was like, this is what I'm talking to you about. These women going in getting angry asking for a manager and being mean to everybody.

I'm the manager. I have to deal with this every single day. And so he says, you know, when I'm finished with residency, once we move, which was that year, he's like, you can just stop doing that. Stop working in that industry and do something different. So I decided to go back to school, with everything going on, with the election and stuff.

I went back to school for, political science because I wanted to understand how policy worked, how government worked, because I just couldn't believe what was going on. at the time, and I took a writing class, and one of the assignments was to write about somebody that inspired you or changed your life.

And so He Played with Dolls was about someone who did that. Growing up, I used to get in trouble for playing with dolls. I used to hide in [00:07:00] my sister's room or, hide in the backyard and I would take her Barbies and I would play. And for those of us that got spanked growing up spanking. wasn't just, you know, a flat hand on the bum.

I mean, it was a belt. It was, you know, anything that your parent can grab that was near them that they were going to knock you over the head with, right? Like it was very different. And so if I'm playing with a Barbie, I would get hit with a Barbie. And there was one week where I was you know, shamed. I was playing with the Barbie.

I got caught. I got hit with it. And at the same time, my parents started throwing my sister's dresses from her closet at me. Basically threatening me saying that I would be sent to school and a dress.. And for a kid who gets bullied every day, just for being a effeminate can you imagine what that meant?

If I showed up to school in a dress. 

[00:07:59] Angela: Yeah. 

[00:07:59] Luis: You know, in [00:08:00] my mind, that was like, that's it, that's the end of me. They will kill me. And I couldn't go home and tell anyone that I was being bullied because in my house, if you were bullied and you didn't fight back, you were threatened to get in trouble at home.

[00:08:18] Small gestures, significant impacts

[00:08:16] Luis: I would get spanked at home. So obviously nobody in the house knew I was being bullied and showing up an a dress to school would just, you know, Be the end of me. And, and that was devastating. And that weekend we went to go visit an uncle and my cousin and I were in her room playing Barbies and the door opens and it's my uncle and I threw the Barbie across the room, like, Oh, I'm not playing with dolls, you know?

And he paused for a second at the door, walked over, picked up the Barbie that I had thrown, handed it back to me. Sat down with us on the floor, picked up his own doll and started playing with us. And a few years ago, he passed away and I went to the funeral and my cousin and I were, you know, standing there and [00:09:00] I said, you know, your dad was the very first person, the only person when I was growing up that ever showed me acceptance and made me feel like I belonged for just being myself.

and she said, well, how did you do that? And I said, He Played with Dolls. And that really is the essence of, I guess, why I write, like why I, do it now, right? It's those little moments of kindness and acceptance that somebody shows you growing up. And I, I've learned , during the writing process and writing my book that there were so many more moments like that, that I just kind of, forgot because sometimes we focus on pain and on trauma so much that we overlook those tiny moments 

[00:09:44] Angela: that, 

[00:09:45] Luis: you know, probably kept our heads above water.

[00:09:48] Angela: Yeah, that's true. So like when he came into the room and shows you like this amazing amount of Acceptance, you know, and it gives you this positive [00:10:00] response. What did you think at the time? Especially because, like you mentioned, at home, you would have to either hide that you were playing with a doll or not play with a doll at all because you were shamed or spanked for doing so, right?

, what were you feeling at that time? How old were you? Oh gosh, 

[00:10:17] Luis: 12. I've been 12. It was surreal. very first thing I did, my reaction was to look over at my cousin, like what's going on. And she looked at me like, what? And said, he does it all the time. He plays with us all the time. So it was also, was shocking, but it also made it normal because he made it normal, you know, and that I think was the biggest takeaway for me was here's this big guy who's like, you know, a big man and he's sitting here and he's playing with dolls and it's not weird.

[00:10:52] Fitting in vs Belonging

[00:10:52] Luis: And it's not wrong, and so that was the moment where I, realized that it was just going to have to be me against the world. [00:11:00] One of the things that I love about that I write about is the difference between fitting in and belonging, right? And to fit in, we have to. mold ourselves into what our surroundings or environment or society says we should be, right?

What's, what's acceptable to them. But belonging requires courage because belonging means that you stick to who you are and you live authentically. And for a child that's really hard for a young person, that's really hard to do. Yeah. Um, sassiness because.

The way that it sort of changed in my mind was, kind of ended up, you know, walking around thinking, you know what? It ain't me, girl. It's you. You crazy. So anytime somebody rejected me or somebody, anytime somebody made fun of me, that's literally what would pop up in my head. I know I'm not nuts. I know I'm not crazy.

It's you get over yourself. And I [00:12:00] think that moment also brought on that mentality. It's a little delusional, but it's confident. 

[00:12:07] Angela: Yeah, I gave you some confidence for sure. So at that time when you have this interest in playing with dolls, like that's your natural inclination. Do you know that you're gay also, or are these two different spaces? Like, when did you know you were gay? 

[00:12:22] Luis: I'm so lucky that I've always known, like I've known, I remember having a crush on a boy when I was five.

You know, like I knew when I was that young, I would, , chase girls around and say, I'll marry her. But it's only because the, the Hispanic men in my family, that's what they expected of me. And I would get praise from them if I did things like that. And I would have allowed to hang out with them if I did things like that.

And if I, I said I had a girlfriend or one on one, they would cheer for you, you know, with their. with their, you know, cigarettes and their beers in their hand as they're waiting for the meat to finish [00:13:00] from barbecue. You know, it's just, it was something you did, but I, I knew that that's why I was doing it.

My whole life, which is I know is incredibly rare, but I feel very grateful that I always kind of knew and I never tried to, I never tried to pretend that I was was like I was never ashamed of it, even though everyone was trying to shame me for it. I know there was one part. of my life where I did get a little confused because here I liked things that, you know, my uncles were telling me were for girls.

[00:13:11] Did God make a mistake?
I like to sit with my legs closed, which my uncles told me was only girls did.. I liked boys. I like to paint. I like to play with dolls. And I remember for a little while I remember thinking. Oh God, did God make a mistake? 

Was 

I supposed to be a girl? Because I like all these girl things. Maybe I'm supposed to be a girl.

Not that I wanted to be a girl. I just thought, I was confused, right? Because maybe, maybe [00:14:00] he made a mistake. But that was like, it wasn't like a thing that I lived with for a long time. It was probably a few months until I snapped out of it again and thought, No, no, no, I'm good. I'm good. I just need to remember that I need to, you know, be true to myself.

And I grew up in a really small town. So the next step for me was to get the hell out of there. 

[00:14:24] Angela: Isn't it interesting how like, when we're young, we can have these little moments where we're like, I know that there's something different about me. I recognize this difference. Even if you can't give it a name, I don't know if you knew what the name or the label, I guess, or it was.

Yeah, same with me. I didn't either. And like, you can recognize these things, but you kind of just log it and kind of move on. Because it's like you said, you know, society and your family and everybody around you tells you things should be a certain way. And you just kind of move on. Move that direction or you just [00:15:00] keep going and avoid it.

Did you ever have any, any girlfriends in high school or did you, because you said you didn't hide it, but how did you get around it in high school? Like, did that ever come up? 

[00:15:11] Luis: Yeah. So one of the essays that I write about, cause it was kind of a. a mess growing up. there was this boy that I really liked in seventh grade and he had a crush on this really pretty girl.

And so I asked her to be my girlfriend so that he wouldn't go out with her. So that's, I mean, , that's the girlfriend. And then I had to break up with her because this other girl told me she would beat her up if I didn't go out with her. And I had, well, I held her hand. I think, you know, how you did on.

At lunch break and 15th held the girl's hand. I held her hand, but that was it. Um, I kissed a girl in high school. even then I was like, this is just, it's not, not for me.

[00:15:52] Angela: Oh, man what's funny about me is I always had boyfriends who look like girls. Like they were very like pretty [00:16:00] boys. So those were the boys I gravitated to. So I was wondering, like when you mentioned that you started writing this essay, That kind of tapped into this memory of, what was, like, this life changing moment, right?

But before that, you, did you do a lot of writing before that? 

[00:16:19] Luis: Yeah, I, just for fun, when I was in New York, I wrote a blog just for fun about my dating life. 

[00:16:26] Angela: Okay, 

[00:16:27] Luis: called romantically unavailable, which, you know, I'll probably write about in my second book. And then when I started working for this one company, I did a lot of blogging on LinkedIn about company culture.

And empowering people and inspiring people and influencing people rather than being a boss the difference between a leader and a boss. I did a lot of that. And it's always been, I've always written nonfiction, right narrative, but it was only until I started going to college for the first time at 40 [00:17:00] that I started to really write.

[00:17:02] Writing about traumatic experiences and inserting humor

[00:17:02] Luis: About my childhood and the stuff I wrote in New York was very there was a lot of humor in it. So I've been able to sort of write about traumatic experiences, but insert a lot of humor in it. And it's been really difficult, right? Because you tap into that part of your life that was really difficult and you sort of bring it with you.

So I've had a lot of help maneuvering through that and making sure that I can keep a lot of the emotions. that it's more healing than debilitating. 

[00:17:30] Angela: and it's so hard. Yesterday , I happened to be scrolling Instagram and saw this reel of Anne Lamott. And she had said that thing of like, you know, when you're writing and you're writing about people in your life and then you're thinking like, Oh, I shouldn't say this.

This isn't very kind or whatever. And she was like, they should have just been better people. And it's so funny because you're like, yeah, that's kind of true. But we all make mistakes and we all have flaws and we all learn. And that kind of leads me to, [00:18:00] you mentioned earlier, fitting in versus being yourself.

and I know, , in our Latino culture, like, There's that inherent machismo and you, mentioned you grew up around that, that energy. Right. So how did that work when you're in a space where your family's like shaming you for playing with dolls and then coming out, how was that dynamic with them?

[00:18:26] Luis: It was really easy. 

[00:18:28] Angela: Was it? 

[00:18:29] Luis: Yeah. For 

[00:18:30] Angela: you? What about for them? 

[00:18:33] Luis: I think, so, my, let's use my mother for example. 

[00:18:36] Angela: Okay. 

[00:18:32] The bond gay men have with their mothers

[00:18:37] Luis: I think she was the I always describe her as oh gosh, how do I describe her? She's very she's like a gay man's dream. She's like Sofia Vergara. Like everything's tight, boobs are out, you know, hair is always done, she will not leave the house without makeup.

She wears heels. all the time, you know, she was just very we weren't [00:19:00] really told what not to wear growing up, except for my sister. But the boys could wear whatever they wanted. I wore six inch or five inch platform heels in high school, like platform boots. They weren't like high heels. They're like 

[00:19:13] Angela: punk.

At that time was okay. 

[00:19:16] Luis: Yeah, but I wore it 

[00:19:17] Angela: away with it because it was like more of like a punk ish 

[00:19:21] Luis: kind 

[00:19:22] Angela: of thing. 

[00:19:23] Luis: I mean, I wore it with bell bottoms. And like, I mean, I look like something that just came out of Saturday Night Fever. Like that's, but I think my mom loved it because that's when she was young, right?

It was like her era, right? Enjoyed it. But, you know, I couldn't hang out with guys that were really obviously gay. Right. Because then you'd get, what are people going to say about you? What are people going to think? 

[00:19:44] Angela: Right. 

[00:19:45] When your mom becomes an ally

[00:19:45] Luis: You know and the strange thing is when I finally came out to her though, everything stopped.

Like the bullying stopped. I wasn't, it was like, like as if when I came out, in her eyes, I felt like it was, to her, it felt like I [00:20:00] had finally accepted it about myself. So then it was okay. Like she tried to scare it out of me because she thought it was a choice. 

[00:20:08] Angela: And 

[00:20:09] Luis: she realized , he's already announced it.

He's not changing. Everything changed. I mean, she literally, I before marriage, we had marriage equality. I marched in the streets of New York for marriage equality before it was legalized in the state. And she literally flew out from California to go to a rally with me. spoke at a rally in Queens And she came out and held my hand during the whole thing.

And when I went up to do my speech, she held my hand and came out there and supported me as I did my speech. So she's like an insane ally. Like you would not ever think for one second, if you knew her now that she would have ever done those things to me growing up, you just would never even think about it.

Wow. Right. And I was lucky enough that I never had a family [00:21:00] member reject me after that. My own uncle, who is a priest, a Catholic priest is. accepting and kind to me. So very unexpected, for sure. 

[00:21:13] Angela: Did you ever talk to her about it seemed like the sudden change from? Yeah, 

[00:21:18] Luis: we had a really tough conversation because I had a cousin who had come out and my dad, one of my dad's brothers, , his dad, he threw him out of the house.

And so my mom was like, you need to call him and tell him to come. He can come move in 

with me and I'll take care of him. And he's like, you know, how could your uncle do that to her, his son? And I said to her, I said let's get one thing straight. I have forgiven you. I've moved through it, but there is no way in hell I will ever let you pretend that it didn't happen.

Because you need to take responsibility. And she just kinda, well I would never, you did though. You did. You know, and, [00:22:00] and then it got really quiet after that. But I think right now the only real rejection I get is from my lesbian aunt. 

[00:22:09] Angela: Really? 

[00:22:10] Luis: Yes. 

[00:22:10] Angela: Tell me more. Tell me about that.

[00:22:11] Facing rejection from our own (LGBTQ+) family

[00:22:12] Luis: Growing up it was like, 

why can't you be more like your brothers? And it would always annoy her when I, I don't like, I, I didn't, I do like sports, but I don't follow sports. That would annoy her. If I did anything overly effeminate, she would make a face. Why are you doing that? Yet she plays, she watches sports. She plays sports, all the stereotypical things that are supposed to be for boys.

She, she does smoke cigars for F sake, you know, like those sorts of, like, I don't think that they are. feminine or masculine, they just are. But most of the machismo behavior I got from my lesbian aunt at her wedding she, she told me to man up. So it's like, right. And it's something that we kind of struggle right now.

We're really not, [00:23:00] our relationship is definitely in a place at the moment that we need to sort of get back to, because I do, you know, I, I just, That's a lot, that's all her, right? Like there's a lot of stuff there that she needs to work through. But that's the only, only family member right now that's kind of weird.

[00:23:17] Angela: Yeah. That's, that's interesting. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. Yeah. I honestly teared up when you were telling me about the conversation you had with your mom about forgiving her and moving on

because I, I just I have to wonder, did she ever apologize or explain? Like clearly she had fear. You know, like you said, she was trying to scare it out of you thinking it was a choice, which clearly it wasn't. What was the shift for her though? Did she ever explain that? Or did you ever ask her like what the shift was from complete fear to total ally?

[00:23:42] A mother's fear

[00:23:54] Luis: No, I never asked. \ I personally just, and I should ask because I think that's the [00:24:00] direction my book is going into. Yeah. Yeah. But I should ask that question, but I personally felt it as soon as I came out, all of those sort of comments just kind of went out the window. 

[00:24:10] Angela: Wow. 

[00:24:11] Luis: And she was already an ally for her sister who's the lesbian.

[00:24:15] Angela: Mm hmm. 

[00:24:16] Luis: And her brother who's gay. She did say a couple of years after that, that my, okay, so maybe this is it. My gay uncle was rejected by my grandmother who he came out to her and they were extremely close, which is very, it's very normal for very common for gay boys to be extremely close to their mothers.

And can I quote a book? Sure. , I'm not going to quote it, but this is where I learned it from. It's Alan Downs is the author for The Velvet Rage. And he talks about how moms notice how fathers treat you when you're a gay child, right? You're a gay boy. It's almost like they become a [00:25:00] little more overprotective of you.

And it sort of thrusts you into developing this different kind of relationship with your mother, where she's a little more overprotective. And she was, my mom was that way towards me. And my grandmother was that way towards my uncle. But as soon as he came out, because she's, you know, very religious Catholic, she disowned him and threw him out.

And after that, I mean, he was a chemical engineer, graduated from UCLA. And after that, he just started to spiral that rejection. I mean, he was in and out of mental institutions. He was medicated. He tried to commit suicide a few times and was institutionalized for that. And that was, also, you know, we have the 80s and the AIDS.

epidemic, right? 

[00:25:45] Angela: Yeah. 

[00:25:45] Luis: That was my mom's example of what it meant to be gay, right? She saw my uncle going in and out of these hospitals. She saw people around her dying of AIDS. So she was [00:26:00] afraid for me. And she said, I didn't want you to live that life. I didn't want you to, I didn't want people to reject you.

I didn't want you to end up like your uncle basically is what she said. 

[00:26:12] Angela: Yeah. 

[00:26:13] Luis: And that never happened, you know, and I don't know, I don't know if, accepting it as quickly as she did was because she saw what. my grandmother rejecting my uncle did to my uncle. Obviously there were some issues probably already there, right?

I don't think that it was all my grandmother's fault. I just think that it was definitely something that sort of sparked some emotional instability that was already there that kind of threw him over the edge. But I think that she thought I better, I better, like, embrace him because if I don't, This will happen.

But then she also went through her own journey of being an ally. I think she had gay friends. I mean, she, a gay friend. So she had an idea, you know? 

[00:26:58] Angela: Yeah. I think you bring up a [00:27:00] good point about like the time period, like for our parents, you know, from the seventies to the eighties, they're seeing, I don't want to say gay culture, but their perception of gay culture as like you said, very heavy in that AIDS epidemic.

And a lot of stigma and, you know, a lot of fear. I think now parents. Probably have somewhat of the same fear, but it's a little bit, I think, of a different layer. I think their fear is just more their child being ostracized or bullied or worse. So in, in some ways it's the same, in some ways it's a little different, but you bring up a really good point of the time period.

[00:27:44] Luis: Yeah, there's a lot of, a lot of fear there, you know, and then you have a lot of, a lot of hate that was being spewed out by the churches even more so than you do now because things that people don't understand they're afraid of. Remember they were saying that it was that AIDS [00:28:00] was something that God did to punish gay people.

I mean, it was, it was a very, very tough time. 

[00:28:07] Angela: Yeah. So what does life look like for you now? Now you're married. 

[00:28:12] Luis: I'm married. 

[00:28:13] Angela: You're writing in a very queer space. You write for queer Kentucky, can we say that? Yeah. Can we talk about that? Okay. Yeah. Talk about that. Do you mainly write about politics?

[00:28:23] Luis: No, I wrote an essay about my, my uncle. I think that's what the essay was. My uncle, I'm telling you, I always forget. I wrote about that. I did write a political op ed a while back. I'm trying not to write a lot about that, even though I am educated in that, because I don't, it's just I don't want to.

Do that, I guess. I don't know why. I don't want to be known for that. Yeah. And so right now I'm just in the process of the book is finished. So now just getting published, getting the book published. I've been lucky enough to open for David Sedaris a couple of times which reminds me how much I love being on stage.[00:29:00]

[00:29:03] Writing about vulnerable topics and experiences
Right. So I wish I could make a career out of that. That would be amazing. You 

[00:29:05] Angela: will. Yo will. Yeah. 

[00:29:06] Luis: We'll see. 

[00:29:07] Angela: What's it like writing? I know what it's like to podcast and talk about these very vulnerable stories, you know, and it just feels really uncomfortable sometimes. What is it like to write about it? And then also, do you ever worry or wonder what certain people are going to think, like, in your family?

You talked about earlier, of what it's like to grow up in a space where

[00:29:31] Luis: you Yeah, no. People ask me that all the time. What are you going to do when your book comes out? What, what do you, do you filter? No, I don't. I don't. Here's the thing. I have this, there's this character in a lot of the, the essays that I write and, um, because I have creative license, right?

I have my own story. I like to sort of, sometimes I combine in. people into one character because it's the same thing, right? And yeah, and there's an aunt though that's probably [00:30:00] about 75 percent of that character and then I just insert other people because it happens around the same time and it might be like multiple people doing something to me that I just kind of merge into one person.

 And I was sort of estranged from her and I hadn't talked to her in years, decades, and I just saw her a few weeks ago as an adult, and I spent a couple of days with her as an adult, and I fell madly in love with her. as an adult. And we were, we didn't bring up any of the past, but she said a certain things that alluded to her feeling ashamed of who she was back then.

[00:30:44] Angela: Wait, is this, this is a different anthe, right? It's the same one. Oh, it's a different, not the 

[00:30:47] Luis: lesbian. No, it's a different. Okay. 

[00:30:49] Angela: This is a different one. Okay. 

[00:30:49] Luis: Yeah. Yeah. I idolized the lesbian aunt. So when I write about her, it's pure, like, yeah, I just idolized her. Which I think is why the [00:31:00] shaming really bugs me.

[00:31:01] Angela: That's so sad though. 'cause like you idolized her and looked up to her and then she's just not very kind. Like 

[00:31:07] Luis: Yeah. 

[00:31:08] Angela: Sad. Sorry, so and 

[00:31:11] Luis: so. No. And so the other aunt, you know, I was able to reconnect with her and I was really excited about that because I'm gonna be able to change the page on who she is in my story and in my book and my life, but as well as the book.

And I'm glad that I don't filter her. I'm glad that I don't make her seem nicer because I, I don't want to offend her because it's going to make. this chapter so much better. This is who she was, but this is who she is now. And this is who we are together now. Right. And, when people change like that it just makes, it makes any story so much more beautiful and relationships so much more meaningful.

[00:31:51] Angela: definitely 

[00:31:51] Luis: do not, I don't filter any of it. 

[00:31:55] The rupture in relationships and the possibility of repair

[00:31:55] Angela: That theme of rupture and repair of relationships, [00:32:00] especially under the LGBTQ umbrella and us coming out to people who are so vital in our lives, that theme of rupture and repair has been a really interesting thing. And I think it's been really important and I'm glad it keeps coming up because I want to remind people, you know, first of all, I don't want anybody to have to go through.

The negative stories at all, right? But I want people to understand that it's possible to, to change, to, to grow and to come back around and say, you know, I was wrong, or I saw this incorrectly and, you know, or just simply I was wrong, you know? 

[00:32:37] Luis: Yeah, I'm an avid believer in, that growth comes through adversity.

Yeah. Right. And so when we go through traumatic experiences, , we learn, and we grow. And that's the only way, unfortunately, you know, we become better, we become stronger. And so at all of these cause there's, I don't just write about [00:33:00] traumatic experiences, right. Cause I was I was pretty I was pretty conniving growing up and, and I was just a brat and, and I love it.

But, I think it's really important, like you said, to be able to share those with people, right? But then also the learning behind it, like this crappy thing happened to me, but this is what I learned from it. You know, I had a really bad relationship with this aunt, but fuck, I love her now.

You know, and my mom and I had it really, really tough, but now she's My hero, you know, so they're my grandmother. My grandmother and I are extremely close, and I still can't believe she disowned my uncle because she would never do that to me. But the relationship between her and I and her acceptance of me and my husband, she adores my husband, has caused her to reflect on her Went on between her and my uncle.

She was at my aunt's wedding, my aunt's lesbian wedding, you know, like she, and she said to me, she took me [00:34:00] aside because it's not, it's against her belief system. And she took me aside and she said, this is really hard for me, but she was there and she showed up and she went with love. You know, my husband grew up Pentecostal.

And when he came out to his mother we met at a dinner for the first time and she asked about our wedding and because we had a sort of shotgun wedding, it was just him and I. And as he talked to her about it, she looked over at me and she said, this is so hard for me. And knowing that her religious beliefs are so extreme that she could sit there and choose love and sit there with me and treat me with kindness.

And say that to me, the vulnerability behind that. I just was like, I'm in so in love with you and your strength. And you're courage to say, I choose love no matter what I've been taught my entire life. And her and I, we're extremely close. And so, I mean, I know [00:35:00] that my situation is rare, but it can happen.

Right? It can happen for anyone. And that's why I think sharing these stories is so important. Because it can give people hope. But also, like, allies, right? Like, for example, parents, we talk about parents a lot. There is no, first of all, there is no like a rule book for any parenting, right? But there definitely is no rule book for parenting a gay child who's, who you know, is about to go into the world and have a pretty rough time for any minority, whether it be a girl, a gay boy, a person of color, like it's going to be a little different.

For us, you posted a video about a guy saying that, you know, if his son wants to wear a dress, he's going to let him wear a dress. And the first thing I thought was, I hope you give him the tools that that boy's going to need when he gets out into the world in that dress so that he's not emotionally damaged.

Right? Like I thought, because the world is [00:36:00] going to attack him and the world is going to tell him that what he's doing is wrong, even though it's not, I really hope that you're preparing him for that world. 

[00:36:08] Growing up LGBTQ+ today

[00:36:08] Angela: Well, let's talk about that, though, a little bit. I know we're kind of running a little low on time, but just to touch base real quick, that's definitely the world we grew up in.

I do. I do think it's different now. You know, my partner is in the teaching space. My sibling is in the teaching space. And from what I hear, it's a completely different climate in some places, not all places than what we grew up with. You know I do think that they are the stories of bullying, of course, that we hear and teasing and things and shame, things like that.

But I think it's a little bit different, at least to where I feel a little bit of hope. Have you heard anything like that? Well, I live 

[00:36:51] Luis: in the Midwest. Do you know what I mean? So it is. Yeah. The same. 

[00:36:56] Angela: Yeah, not the same. I 

[00:36:57] Luis: mean, I know you're in Texas, but yeah I'm [00:37:00] in the Midwest. 

[00:37:00] Angela: Yeah. So 

[00:37:01] Luis: it's very different.

I mean, when I first moved to Illinois, a few years ago, I'm in Kentucky now, but I was in Illinois. There were moments I wouldn't even get out of my car. 

[00:37:10] Angela: Yeah. 

Which is 

exactly why people who I know have literally picked up their lives, like parent, they're parents of LGBTQ children, specifically trans children, they literally picked up their lives and moved to a different place where their child , can live in a safe environment and be accepted.

It's so sad that we have to go to that extreme. And at the same time, it's so wonderful and so selfless and, you know, just so many other wonderful words I can't think of right now that these parents would go to any extreme to make sure that their child is in a safe place. 

[00:37:47] Luis: And I'm not into pop culture, really, you know, that's terrible, but I'm not.

But I really love this artist, Chapel Roan, which everybody knows about. Because she's from the Midwest, and she gets it. [00:38:00] And she often says, I'm still that girl, right? Because while, you know, a lot of, LGBTQ plus people move to areas that are more accepting, There are so many of us, not me because Louisville is extremely progressive, but there are still so many of us that can't.

Get up and move. 

[00:38:17] Angela: Yeah, you're 

[00:38:17] Luis: right. Many of us that are still hiding in the shadows and having, you know, and people that are having children that have to go to these schools and have to have to, you know, and I don't, I don't think if you can stay there and be in these towns, again, I feel then you need to prepare your child.

[00:38:38] Angela: Because I 

[00:38:38] Luis: grew up in a town like that, 

[00:38:39] Angela: you know, 

[00:38:40] Luis: I grew up in a small agricultural town in rural California, which is most rural. cities in California are, right winged. You know, the only, one of the main reasons California is democratic is because of the big, the big cities, right? Where we all kind of, and it was everywhere.

You know, I mean, [00:39:00] I mean, I was the perfect example of that. And I know that was still in the nineties, but those communities still exist because a lot of those people do not leave these little towns and they take what they carry with them. The same thing their parents taught them. Those bullies that bullied me that are still there had kids and guess what their kids are Yeah, I mean, so it's, it's while we've evolved for sure, I can feel it, you know, there's still those things, but I think that preparing these children is a great, it's a gift.

[00:39:31] Angela: You're 

[00:39:31] Luis: preparing kids to be bad ass adults, you know what I mean? 

[00:39:35] Angela: And it's also about raising LGBTQ allies, which has come up in a previous episode before too. I wanted to end on that theme that you started with, which was like the positive stories that you took that, that story of your uncle walking into the room when you had a doll in your hand, and then you realized.

[00:39:57] The importance of being a positive example for LGBTQ+ youth

[00:39:57] Angela: What a positive message that was and [00:40:00] like when you and I talked a while back you had brought this same thing up Of just how important it is to think about, like we, we constantly think about the negative messages we received or the negative stories and the negative impact that has, it's had on us, but to try to think of the positive stories and those positive things that have happened and try to encourage other people to be the positive message.

So I appreciate that. 

[00:40:27] Luis: Yeah, I think it's really, really important. You don't want to dismiss the bad, right? Because to me in life, the bad has just as much value as the good, but if we can focus and you, you just totally nailed it. If we can remember those moments and be those moments for other people, you know, I had a friend and when we were living in rural Illinois.

She was a Hispanic woman who I met. She owned a cute little art store in Springfield, Illinois. And she had told me that her son was, she knew he was gay. He hadn't come out to her yet, [00:41:00] but she knew he was gay and she didn't understand because she was a huge ally. I mean, she's like on the front lines with us all the time.

Like she's, you know, in her shop, she's got, you know, LGBTQ plus stuff everywhere. I mean, she's just very. Obviously an ally. She didn't understand why her little boy hadn't come out to her yet. And so I said, you know, I said, well, why don't you have him come over to our house, bring the whole family to dinner, and let's have dinner and let him be around a gay married couple, you know, that is no different than mom and dad.

Yeah. You know, except they're two men. And so they came over for dinner and he walks into the house and he's just like, yeah, this is real nice. You know, I was like, all right, girl, this is, you know, we had dinner and it was a great experience for all of us, you know, and I was just very happy that we were able to sort of what's the word expose him 

to 

us.

And a couple of days later, I found a thank you note on our front [00:42:00] door. And it was from him and I opened it up and it's, you know, and he said all these wonderful things. I love your house. It's so pretty. And then he says it was really nice being around other people who are just like me. Wow. That's that.

Yeah. And that's how we ended it. And it was a couple weeks later, it was National Coming Out Day. And he came out to his mom. 

[00:42:23] Angela: Wow. 

[00:42:25] Luis: So 

[00:42:26] Angela: that's awesome. 

[00:42:26] Luis: I believe that we were that little extra, not push, but that extra sort of that we were that experience that gave him the courage to say, Hey, you know what, I can come out to mom and maybe I want that.

You know, maybe I didn't know that you could have that because he was going to Catholic school and he was in a small town. And maybe we were that, that thing that he needed to be exposed to, to say, Hey, it's okay to be me. 

[00:42:51] Angela: Yeah. Well, and it's also his mom bringing him to the space, you know, his mom is showing him of like, look, these are my [00:43:00] friends. She's not even saying anything, just her actions show him that she's supportive. 

[00:43:07] Luis: Yeah, 

[00:43:07] Angela: you know, which is a huge thing. 

[00:43:10] Luis: Well, it's a collaboration right between the parent. 

[00:43:13] Angela: Yeah.

[00:43:14] Luis: You know, 

[00:43:15] Angela: and the example, 

[00:43:16] Luis: yeah, and the example. 

[00:43:18] Angela: Yeah, absolutely. Well, thank you for this time. This has been really awesome. Where can people find you? Is your website the best place or Instagram? 

[00:43:28] Luis: Yeah, Instagram. He Played with Dolls and heplayedwithdolls.Com. If they go on there and, sign up for the notifications with their email, then they'll get updates on you.

When the book will be ready and if I'm excited fingers crossed I get to do some more readings. Yeah. 

[00:43:44] Angela: Yeah. That's awesome. Well, I'll put your info in there. I'll also put the info to the book you referenced Alan Downs. I'll put that in there as well. Yeah. 

[00:43:53] Luis: The Velvet Rage, everyone, especially mothers should read that book.

[00:43:57] Angela: It's still on my queue. I'm going to read [00:44:00] it. Still on there. Awesome. Well, thank you, Luis this is awesome. 

[00:44:04] Luis: Thank you. Cool.